WATCH: Tories claim payroll taxes, pension deduction will lead to job losses

The Progressive Conservatives point to leaked cabinet documents.

With a detailed plan of an Ontario-based pension plan expected to be in Thursday's budget, the Tories continue throwing punches at the minority Liberals calling it a tax.

The Tories have released leaked cabinet documents that show higher payroll taxes will cause the province to loose 18,000 jobs over the next ten years

Standing up in Question Period, Progressive Conservative Leader Tim Hudak refuses to use the word investment when referring to a pension plan because he says it is a payroll deduction.

But Premier Kathleen Wynne won't call it a tax, underlining their plan is about helping people save.

Wynne says the province wouldn't be contemplating its own pension plan if the Conservatives in Ottawa were open to CPP reform.

The Tories say their jobs plan will give people more money and believe they'll want to invest.
This, despite many not voluntarily investing in retirement right now.

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  1. Dean posted on 04/29/2014 12:06 PM
    To the Working Families Coalition and all the other public sector union accomplices who keep propping up the Liberals, think about this:

    Every move the Liberals make to give in to your demands makes it harder and less profitable to conduct business in Ontario. Since profit is the sole aim of running a business in the first place, they will continue to leave Ontario, taking their jobs with them. The taxpayers who you are so happy to leech off of to pay your own salaries will go bankrupt, cutting off your only source of funds. Ontario will become Detroit on a provincial scale.

    How, precisely, do you plan to avoid this fate without giving up your mantra of "consume, consume, consume"?
  2. Mike posted on 04/29/2014 01:08 PM
    I will have to disagree 100% with Mr. Hudak but i understand he's the opposition and as the opposition you oppose everything. it's called politics!
    Mr. Hudak's consistent rhetoric of "million jobs plan" will pay for everything down the road is in my opinion irresponsible and plays with peoples intelligence.
    repeating that if he's voted in and the people that will be employed in the future because of him will pay for transit will pay for infrastructure, will on their own save enough for their retirement is pie in the sky economics and irresponsible.
    people NOW do not take enough responsibly for down the road. they bitch and complain about government but will be the first ones to call government social services to get a handout when they need it and demand it.
    I agree with the premier an Ontario pension plan is long overdo. people are NOT saving for their retirement and it will cause hardship down the road on the rest of us the taxpayers to look after these people if they have not been in some ways forced to be more responsible. it has to be totally transparent with oversight. i look at it as the same as my pension now. I pay now so i can collect later not i dont pay now but i want to collect later....
    the feds are wrong in not supporting a look at improving Canada pension.
  3. don was right posted on 04/29/2014 01:24 PM
    If people arent saving because they have no money, where will they get the money to have more taken off their pay cheques for this new boondoggle? Not only thier portion but the equivalent tax on the employer? Remember Caterpilar Electromotive Devision before you support this. And if you think it is no big deal for an american company to leave, what about Komatsu, or Hyundaiu, who are selling crap here but not paying any of the taxes a Canadian based manufacturer would.Yet take a look at teh Hitachi diggers lined up on the Gardiner.
  4. Ernie posted on 04/29/2014 01:28 PM
    @ Mike
    Ultimately what you are saying is that people should not be held responsible for planning their own lives, spending, and futures and that we are better off that the Wynne government does it for us.

    In general, I disagree on this presumption. While there are individuals that are not able to manage themselves from one pay cheque or welfare cheque to the next, there are in fact social services to help people with dealing with those shortfalls.

    In my own case as an example, at age 52 I have opted to stop paying into CPP (I am self employed). How have I opted out? By simply not paying myself a wage anymore. It is saving myself and my wife over $8000 a year in CPP premiums between our personal and business contributions. I am using that $8000 to contribute to my own retirement plan (not even an RRSP). So over the next 13 years to my retirement, I will have saved over $104,000 BY NOT CONTRIBUTING, and by investing on my own.

    To put this in perspective, if I continued to pay into CPP over the next 13 years (and my wife as well) that $104,000 spent will get us combined exactly $29.34 per month in more pension from CPP than we would otherwise get.

    No, I can manage my money a lot better than any government plan.
    1. Galt posted on 04/29/2014 01:33 PM
      @Ernie That's the crux of it: Any individual can manage their own X better than a government plan, and anyone who can't shouldn't become the responsibility of those who can.
    2. Mike posted on 04/29/2014 01:58 PM
      @Ernie that sounds all fine and dandy I'm 54 been working for 35 yrs pretty much full time paying my taxes contributing to my later years somewhat looking after my own stuff. But you tell me what's the generation of 25 to 35 yr olds going to do? Everything now is this 6 month contract 1 yr contract bullsht. I work for a large company no one hires full time any more. Contract jobs outsource for cheaper labour. These are pressures I for the most part didn't have. What is a 35 yr old going to do in 30 years if he or she is just going from gig to gig.
      You think mr Hudak together with corporations have a master plan to give
      out good paying full time jobs that pay well to live in a city like Toronto and these people will save for their retirement pay for transit pay for infrastructure? I have a bridge to sell you
    3. john posted on 04/29/2014 02:10 PM
      @Ernie ptt a addicted gambler can manage money better then any government
    4. don was right posted on 04/29/2014 02:52 PM
      @Mike And as payrol taxes go up in Ontario to keep a bunch of liberal has beens employed in a new burocracy, more jobs will leave. Look at how many Hyundais and KIAs there are in provincial office parking lots. None of the people building those cars are paying Ontario taxes. None of the Samsung factory workers in Korea building windmills are paying Ontario payrol taxes. And as Ontario payrol taxes go up, there will be fewer of those of full time jobs.
    5. bigdaddy7777 posted on 04/29/2014 03:10 PM
      @Galt Just an FYI - the annualized 10 year return for the CPP is 7.4%. Don't know about you, but that exceeded the performance in my self directed RRSP.
    6. Mike posted on 04/29/2014 03:14 PM
      @don was right no of course not! people working at the Honda plant here in Canada or in the States aren't paying taxes in their province or state. their paying directly to the Japanese government.
      I'll never get back the minute and a half typing this out to you.
      you realize that?
    7. arthur posted on 04/29/2014 03:22 PM
      @bigdaddy7777 the problem is no one wants to pay/contribute now but i bet they will all be waiting in the line up at the pension office to try and collect later at others expense. I'll check my own stuff and the returns thanks for the info.
    8. Ernie posted on 04/29/2014 05:05 PM
      @Mike @Mike
      The problem you are defining essentially is one of being unemployed or under employed. This is indeed a very serious issue in this country and have been very vocal on the problems we face as a result of this. The causes of being unemployed or under employed in this country in my opinion come from Federal Policy (yes the Harper Govt, and before that the Liberal Gov't) that are promoting the GATT and removing duty and trade barriers on product coming to us from China. We cannot compete at a standard of living that requires $20 per hour to maintain against an economy that pays 40 cents an hour to its workers.

      This has NOTHING to do with the Wynne gov't trying to put in a pension plan. Pension plans only work for those who have jobs.

      At the same token - Wynne's policy of paying companies $100,000 per job created does nothing in the long run to create a healthy business sector. Companies when they are given generous handouts like that get fat and sloppy and do not take competitiveness seriously enough (since they don't need to) and once the government well runs dry, so do they.

      The solution is to get everyone working by getting our manufacturing sector strong again - but this needs government policy (at the fed level) that devalues the Canadian $ - 60 cents would be awesome - and imposes stiff duties on Chinese companies that sell here but do not manufacture here.
    9. Ernie posted on 04/29/2014 05:10 PM
      @bigdaddy7777 @ big daddy
      What good does a 7.4% return do if the pot of money they have invested is too small to pay anyone a meaningful pension.

      The Ontario Teachers Pension fund is the most successful pension fund in the world averaging over 11% return. Yet the entire fund has $40 billion less in it than their payout obligations. Why? Because the pension plan was calculated based on 1972 actuarial studies that said a teacher works for 27 years and is retired for 12 then dies. Well the truth of medical science is that a teacher works for 27 years (paying in a pension) yet receives a pension for 32 years - no 12. No pension plan in the world can pay out for more years than it receives money - and the Ontario Taxpayer is responsible for that $ 40 billion promise by past politicians of all stripes.
    10. bigdaddy7777 posted on 04/29/2014 11:29 PM
      @Ernie Where in the world do you get you numbers from??

      OTPP is actually showing a preliminary $5.1 Billion Surplus (go to their website). Yes, I realize that a surplus position can become an unfunded liability the following year, but you numbers are incredibly erroneous.

      My earlier point was to throw water on the generalization that governments should have nothing to do with managing a portion our nest eggs. My back of the envelope math suggests that the current CPP payout of approx. $10K represents 4 years worth of contributions. Not a bad ratio if you ask me.
  5. Bob posted on 04/29/2014 02:39 PM
    wow! 18,000 lost jobs. Does Tim have a formula for coming up with the 18,000 number he's not telling us or did he just reach over into Vic Fideli's azz and just grab the figure?
    we might loose 18,000 jobs in Ontario but i'm thinking it's because of capitalist greed outsourcing for cheap labour someplace else at the expense of the Ontario labour force
    1. Ernie posted on 04/29/2014 05:38 PM
      @Bob Capitalist greed this ..capitalist greed that. Those words come from individuals who have no sense of how the real world works.

      You make it sound like businesses hold all the cards and can make any profit they want at the snap of a finger.

      Newsflash - business has to do everything in their power to compete or GO OUT OF BUSINESS. It is NOT Walmarts fault that the US and Canadian governments allow them to import low cost goods from China at nearly zero duty. If they did not do it, Target will and Walmart would be out of business.

      It is governments responsibility to put all businesses on an equal playing field. In this particular case, the culprit I the federal government for allowing low or no duty on goods from China. The reason for this is that Harper has visions of selling oil and minerals to China needing relatively few workers at the expense of killing our manufacturing sector that employed millions.

      Do NOT blame corporations for doing whatever it takes within the rules government imposes to stay alive. If you want more Canadians employed (like I do) then you have to complain to the Federal government and their stupid policies. Not Walmart!
    2. Mike posted on 04/29/2014 05:59 PM
      @Ernie business have every right to make profit but when you have stuff like Bangladesh and huge corps basically closing their eyes as long as they can sell that t-shirt for $6 something is just not right to me. we are lucky in Canada but things like unregulated banking systems like the states and what happened to mortgages turn into junk people loosing everything. that bothers me
      that's a portion of capitalist greed that troubles me
    3. Ernie posted on 04/29/2014 08:26 PM
      @Mike @Mike
      I agree its not right - that's why we have a government isn't it? To control all companies the same way ! Hence my point.
  6. Karl Burgin posted on 04/29/2014 02:41 PM
    1. Pointing Out the Obvious posted on 04/29/2014 04:02 PM
      @Karl Burgin Karl, this is a provincial story.
      Try to pay attention.
    2. tanjo posted on 04/29/2014 04:29 PM
      @Pointing Out the Obvious That's not Karl.

      Karl is a Matt Groening character.
  7. David posted on 04/29/2014 03:40 PM
    When it comes to finances, the last people I would trust are the ones that are responsible for destroying our province with massive debt. Whose fault is it that people aren't saving for their retirements? Here's an idea, don't purchase a house, car, vacation etc that you cannot afford. It is called priorities. The last thing I want are the corrupt fingers of this pathetic government in my pocket. Wynne is just like McGuinty, trust us, we know what is best for you.
  8. Pointing Out the Obvious posted on 04/29/2014 04:00 PM
    Karl, this is a provincial story.
    Try to pay attention.
  9. Frankie posted on 04/29/2014 05:08 PM
    CPP is one of the best run investment funds with excellent returns. The chances of an Ontario fund providing similar returns is unlikely and, similar to the Quebec model, will likely have political interference which would further reduce its returns.

    That's before addressing the Ontario Liberal "corruption" that is wasting billions of dollars with nothing to show for it. Why would any person want to jeopardize their retirement plan by having the Liberals attempt to "invest" it?
  10. don was right posted on 04/29/2014 08:24 PM
    @Mike who cant seem to differentiate between Honda which does indeed make a car or two in Canada, and KIA which makes NOTHING here. Maybe the world map on your Samsung tablet is defective? Or maybe just clueless.
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