JOHN MOORE

Jerry Agar makes my point for me.

Posted By: John Moore · 6/19/2012 2:05:00 PM

ON the way home from the studio this morning I saw a van burn a yellow light turning red at St-Clair and Yonge. There was also a car parked ON the sidewalk outside of the Starbucks. Clearly a majority of motorists are not obeying the rules of the road. 

Last week I was in a traffic jam and a motorcyclist roared past me going between the two lines of cars (a biker listener tells me this is called "lane spitting"). Obviously a majority of bikers are completely reckless and don't deserve to use the roads at all. 

The point I made this morning during Free For All Round 1 was that cyclists are the only group made to wear the sins of a few. Jerry Agar asserted that a "majority of cyclists" disobey the rules of the road. I asked him what his evidence for this position was and he replied that this morning he saw a cyclist break a rule. Well that’s proof enough.

Jerry promised to come back with facts and figures to prove his point and he posted them on his blog. Except what he came back with was an NPR summary of studies on who is to blame when bikes and cars collide. Not exactly the same point. But my thanks to Jerry anyway since every single study (save one) cited in the column concludes that in a majority of accidents the cyclist is NOT to blame.

The myth that a majority of cyclists are breaking the rules is one of those easy talking points that obscures the fact that law abiding cyclists have just as much right to the road as law abiding motorists. So punish everyone who breaks the rules. It's that simple. But this idea that one group behaves better or worse than the other is sheer bunk.

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  1. SteveB_10 posted on 06/19/2012 03:05 PM
    Its as stupid as saying all right wing broadcasters are idiots.
  2. MichaelP posted on 06/19/2012 03:59 PM
    I'm not sure how Jerry "made your point". He didn't say on the show that cyclists are to blame for accidents, he said that most cyclists in Toronto don't follow traffic laws. And they don't. I know you guys like to argue and it sometimes makes for good radio but sometimes (like today) it just comes off as ridiculous. I drive the same route downtown every day and every single day I see cyclists go right through stop signs without stopping (hell often without even slowing). It's common practice. The odd time one will stop.

    A better counterpoint would be that most drivers don't obey traffic laws either (and don't make the ridiculous point of going through red lights like you often try to make). The vast majority of drivers do stop at red lights. But most drivers don't drive at the speed limit on the highway, most drivers don't signal lane changes (drives me nuts), most drivers don't come to a complete stop at stop signs. Most drivers aren't good drivers.

    But in my humble opinion as bad as drivers are they are fantastic compared to the average cyclist. When you state that most cyclists obey traffic laws it makes you look like you're not paying attention to what's really happening in the city. It's not the "sins of a few", it's the sins of the majority. The only reason why this can't be documented is because the police have chosen to not enforce traffic laws were cyclists are concerned.

    The point i agree with you on though is that it's time to start ticketing more aggressively all cyclists/motorists/pedestrians. We have a problem a huge problem that needs to be addressed.
    1. DM posted on 06/20/2012 07:31 AM
      @MichaelP I agree that all people should be fined when breaking the rules. Who then will charge the police officers that ride through the stop signs on brock near my house. I too ride through these stop signs. I slow down, check, and roll through. As do the cars. Many of them. Stop lights on major roads (like queen, college, dundas and dufferin. To name a few), however, I do stop. As do many other cyclists.

      Just last night I was riding down queen and at every light, there were a few cyclists stopped waiting for the light to change. This isn't breaking the law. And this isn't the majority.

      I know I know. But I went through a stop sign on a not so busy street. Yes. This is breaking the law. Ask yourself, though, how many times you have done something, that was against the law (in a car), when not too many were looking, or you knew it was safe to do so. Probably the same reason I see cops, all the time, ride right through the same stop signs I do. On a quiet street.

      I think ticketing will help. It did for me. I was ticketed for passing a streetcar when the door was open. Well, I basically pushed my bike, while on it, along the curb. Anyway, I always now stop when the doors are open on a streetcar.

      I think that people in cars really need to open their eyes. Literally. Cyclists are getting hit, and yes, many are obeying the rules.
    2. DM posted on 06/20/2012 07:41 AM
      @MichaelP Michael, you are right, Jerry never did say that cyclists are to blame for accidents on the show. He did however, If you take a look at his blog from yesterday. I think this was John's point.

      Take a look at his blog. Jerry starts his blog by writing " Bike/Car accidents, whose fault?"

      Then writes: "Who is at fault, statistically, when there is an accident between a car and a bicycle? Depends who you ask. If you pick and choose between the studies, you can make it seem as if it is always the car."

      Not sure Jerry even read the article. It is not at all about who you ask. All of the studies, the ones Jerry is referring to in his link, state that a majority are caused by cars.

      Here is an interesting link from someone who did the research in Toronto.

      http://www.research.utoronto.ca/behind_the_headlines/smart-cycling/
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  3. GregH_5652 posted on 06/19/2012 05:02 PM
    I took a marketing course and remember a saying one of my profs said. "If someone gets lousy service they will tell 7 people. If they get great service, they might tell 1. My point? People tend to remember the bad things people do. I hear compaints about cyclists from drivers, and about drivers from cyclists and other drivers. But really, do you notice when somebody is driving/cycling well? Probably not. We've all got things on our mind and unless we see something aggregious it doesn't register. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we'll never learn if a majority of cyclists are playing by the rules or not until we start to compile data. And we do that by issuing tickets to cyclists. Cars don't run red lights because a) it's not safe but even if it's 2 in the morning b) they don't want a ticket. Enforece the law, compile the stats and we can start having a reasonable discussion.
    1. MichaelP posted on 06/19/2012 05:05 PM
      @GregH_5652 better yet, just enforce the law. We wouldn't need to compile the stats and have the discussion if that part was being done.
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  4. Ziggy posted on 06/19/2012 06:32 PM
    I know it's antidotal; but my street has a four way stop where it connects to a main thoroughfare. Never, not even once have I seen a cyclist travelling the thoroughfare stop there. They will slow down, take a look, then proceed through the intersection. That includes me. You're being obtuse to suggest it's only a few in this situation. A few cars will do the rolling stop; but they are a minority and the occasional no mind blows right through. As is usually the case in this argument both sides exaggerate. When I'm on my bike I don't care if the cars are in the right or wrong I just assume they don't see me and act accordingly. DEFENCE. I've never been hit and have never hit anyone while driving my cars.RESPECT
  5. Mr Marbles posted on 06/19/2012 09:06 PM
    I was listening to the podcast of Moore in the Morning to hear the Round Table and just as Jerry and John were just getting into a heated argument about cyclists the podcast ended. Why did the podcast end there? It sounded like one of the best round table spats of the year between John and Jerry. Frustrating!
    1. Jim posted on 06/21/2012 02:46 AM
      @Mr Marbles Well...with the rest of the world in a tizzy over economy, job-loss, Greece/Spain/Italy and Eurocup soccer...it was heartening to see that the two 1010 torch-bearers (from left and right) found something to butt heads on....cyclists on the road!
  6. PaulM_2399 posted on 06/20/2012 11:27 AM
    "...law abiding cyclists have just as much right to the road as law abiding motorists." John Moore ignores the fact that law BREAKING cyclists also -apparently- have just as much right to the road (and sidewalk) as motorists because there is no mechanism in place to penalize them, or record their infractions simply because thay are not required to obtain a license. Only when cyclists are required to pass a driving test to ensure they understand the rules of the road, and a licensing mechanism (person and bicycle) is in place to record and penalize traffic lawbreakers will there be a level playing field and a way to get the yahoo cyclists off the road.
  7. Peter posted on 06/21/2012 02:21 PM
    You're both right. I think what makes this such a contentious issue is the lack of enforcement with cyclists. Cars will always be the lowest hanging fruit and are much easier targets for the police. There are bad drivers, cabbies come to mind and there are bad cyclists. I constantly witness cyclists going through red lights etc. When was the last time you heard about the police doing a blitz on cyclists?
  8. RandyM posted on 06/21/2012 08:24 PM
    Both bike drivers/riders and auto drivers need to improve driving skills and to say that bike riders obey the law most is just silly or perhaps show that you do not understand the rules of the road. Just the other day, I had about 5 mature bike riders meander between three lines of traffic at a light and make their way across 4 lanes of traffic, and then ride across the intersection through the pedestrian crossing. Most bike riders want to be able to act like a pedestian when convenient, and act like a driver on the road when that is convenient. Until the laws of the road are enforced, the mayhem will continue and unfortunately, bike riders will be killed or hurt, and drivers will suffer as well, because no sane driver truly wants that to happen!
  9. daniel posted on 06/22/2012 11:08 PM
    When a driver is sitting at the red light, he doesn't decide to all of a sudden to cross that red light.

    On the other hand, how many times have you seen a bike stopping at a red light and then they switch to pedestrian mode and ride through the intersection?

    Problem is many bikers decide to follow rules of the road some times and sometimes act a restrained.
    1. CoffeeCon posted on 06/23/2012 11:49 AM
      @daniel Probably some car driver at the red light told them to do it. Not the cyclist's fault.
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